Comments on: What is Rick smoking? http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=what-is-rick-smoking Thinking the unthinkable, pondering the imponderable, effing the ineffable and scruting the inscrutable Tue, 07 Feb 2012 11:20:47 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Rob http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2019 Rob Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:18:00 +0000 http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2019 Of course the ad-hoc can vote, Rick. It is an OWG, and OWG's have all the rights of a normal WG, just limited by the scope of their terms of reference. This includes the ability to vote on meeting resolutions.<br/><br/>I do not share your Pollyannish view that this is a "hopeful sign" of "commitment". Unless you've been hit on the head and have forgotten about the events of the past 18 months, such a view is revisionist, escapist and illustrates a naive understanding of the recent history and dynamics of the SC you claim expertise in. Of course the ad-hoc can vote, Rick. It is an OWG, and OWG’s have all the rights of a normal WG, just limited by the scope of their terms of reference. This includes the ability to vote on meeting resolutions.

I do not share your Pollyannish view that this is a “hopeful sign” of “commitment”. Unless you’ve been hit on the head and have forgotten about the events of the past 18 months, such a view is revisionist, escapist and illustrates a naive understanding of the recent history and dynamics of the SC you claim expertise in.

]]> By: Rick Jelliffe http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2018 Rick Jelliffe Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:02:00 +0000 http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2018 Very silly. <br/><br/>AHG1 is a forum to discuss and negotiate the maintenance not a voting group. The particular maintenance regime from any fast-track procedure needs to have buy-in from the original sponsoring body, whether OASIS or Ecma.<br/><br/>Rather than these conspiracy theories, why not see the numbers as some kind of hopeful sign about the continuing commitment from the Ecma side and the continuing interest from the NB side? Very silly.

AHG1 is a forum to discuss and negotiate the maintenance not a voting group. The particular maintenance regime from any fast-track procedure needs to have buy-in from the original sponsoring body, whether OASIS or Ecma.

Rather than these conspiracy theories, why not see the numbers as some kind of hopeful sign about the continuing commitment from the Ecma side and the continuing interest from the NB side?

]]> By: gerben http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2017 gerben Sun, 20 Jul 2008 13:37:00 +0000 http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2017 Given Microsoft's proven ability to work through third parties that's not quite as reassuring as I'd like. At least the sudden stacking of NBs for OOXML was obvious because Microsoft had to deal with the approaching deadline... There's more room for subtlety here. <br/><br/>Oh well. We can hope, I suppose. Given Microsoft’s proven ability to work through third parties that’s not quite as reassuring as I’d like. At least the sudden stacking of NBs for OOXML was obvious because Microsoft had to deal with the approaching deadline… There’s more room for subtlety here.

Oh well. We can hope, I suppose.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2016 Anonymous Sun, 20 Jul 2008 07:25:00 +0000 http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2016 When you put it that way, Rob, it makes me wonder. After all, do they *really* mind the "destruction" which is intended as the deterrent?<br/><br/>If things got so bad nobody could get any work done on ODF, it would certainly seem to suit their purposes... When you put it that way, Rob, it makes me wonder. After all, do they *really* mind the “destruction” which is intended as the deterrent?

If things got so bad nobody could get any work done on ODF, it would certainly seem to suit their purposes…

]]> By: Rob http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2014 Rob Sat, 19 Jul 2008 12:27:00 +0000 http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2014 Good question. $300 are for individual membership. For corporate membership, the fee is on a sliding scale, based on the size of the company, and entitles the company to as many TC participants as they want.<br/><br/>The disincentive to stuffing a TC in OASIS is that everyone has an equal ability to do this. So if Microsoft showed up one day with 10 new TC members, then one might imagine that at the very next meeting, IBM would add 10, Sun would add 10 and Google would add 10, and so on. <br/><br/>So the disincentive is really that of mutually assured destruction. Good question. $300 are for individual membership. For corporate membership, the fee is on a sliding scale, based on the size of the company, and entitles the company to as many TC participants as they want.

The disincentive to stuffing a TC in OASIS is that everyone has an equal ability to do this. So if Microsoft showed up one day with 10 new TC members, then one might imagine that at the very next meeting, IBM would add 10, Sun would add 10 and Google would add 10, and so on.

So the disincentive is really that of mutually assured destruction.

]]> By: Gerben http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2013 Gerben Sat, 19 Jul 2008 09:54:00 +0000 http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2013 Out of curiosity, with Oasis as open as you described, what's to stop Microsoft from sending a platoon of employees at $300 each to 'assist' in ODF development and stack every single committee? Out of curiosity, with Oasis as open as you described, what’s to stop Microsoft from sending a platoon of employees at $300 each to ‘assist’ in ODF development and stack every single committee?

]]> By: Rob http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2012 Rob Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:48:00 +0000 http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2012 I'm not convinced we are confusing anything. <br/><br/>Suppose this were purely about expertise. Once you send the Secretary General of Ecma (Sebestyen), the Chair of Ecma TC45 (Valet-Harper) and Microsoft's head XML architect (Paoli) what incremental expertise "technical and procedural" is contributed by sending an additional 8 other Microsoft employees?<br/><br/>None. <br/><br/>You certainly get a lot of additional votes and influence though. I’m not convinced we are confusing anything.

Suppose this were purely about expertise. Once you send the Secretary General of Ecma (Sebestyen), the Chair of Ecma TC45 (Valet-Harper) and Microsoft’s head XML architect (Paoli) what incremental expertise “technical and procedural” is contributed by sending an additional 8 other Microsoft employees?

None.

You certainly get a lot of additional votes and influence though.

]]> By: Ian Easson http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2011 Ian Easson Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:36:00 +0000 http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2011 Rob and Zoobab appear to be confusing SC34 with its ad-hoc committee AHG1.<br/><br/>The way the latter was set up was:<br/>- This is a temporary group (about 6 months lifetime)<br/>- Membership explicitly includes Ecma, because of its expertise in the area<br/>- It is not surprising that NB's would send people with expertise in OOXML. It's not intended to be a forum for fighting over IS29500, but to discuss what should be done with it technically and procedurally.<br/>- The group does not decide anything. It is only there to advise the convenor. Rob and Zoobab appear to be confusing SC34 with its ad-hoc committee AHG1.

The way the latter was set up was:
- This is a temporary group (about 6 months lifetime)
- Membership explicitly includes Ecma, because of its expertise in the area
- It is not surprising that NB’s would send people with expertise in OOXML. It’s not intended to be a forum for fighting over IS29500, but to discuss what should be done with it technically and procedurally.
- The group does not decide anything. It is only there to advise the convenor.

]]> By: Rob http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2010 Rob Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:37:00 +0000 http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2010 So a quick tally shows that there will be 25 participants, of which 12 are Ecma TC45 members (as listed) or Microsoft employees (Brett Roberts, Dave Welsh, Jasper Bojsen, Kimmo Bergius, Shahzad Rana and Wemba Opota). <br/><br/>Nothing like a good, stuffed committee to start things off right. Of course, this committee is only advisory. Alex Brown will decide the contents of the actual maintenance proposal, and SC34 (another stuffed committee) will vote on whether to approve that proposal.<br/><br/>That's why I say this standard is on a fast track back to Ecma. Microsoft can force through whatever terms they want on OOXML. This meeting cannot possibly reach consensus on anything unless it is acceptable to Microsoft. There is no logic reason to even negotiate. They have all the cards. They can simply dictate terms. So a quick tally shows that there will be 25 participants, of which 12 are Ecma TC45 members (as listed) or Microsoft employees (Brett Roberts, Dave Welsh, Jasper Bojsen, Kimmo Bergius, Shahzad Rana and Wemba Opota).

Nothing like a good, stuffed committee to start things off right. Of course, this committee is only advisory. Alex Brown will decide the contents of the actual maintenance proposal, and SC34 (another stuffed committee) will vote on whether to approve that proposal.

That’s why I say this standard is on a fast track back to Ecma. Microsoft can force through whatever terms they want on OOXML. This meeting cannot possibly reach consensus on anything unless it is acceptable to Microsoft. There is no logic reason to even negotiate. They have all the cards. They can simply dictate terms.

]]> By: Nate http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2009 Nate Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:34:00 +0000 http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2009 I'm not sure Rick is smoking something so much as shooting it up. A casual perusal of www.oasis-open.org reveals a link on the right for "mailing list directory" which goes to http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/<br/><br/>So I can scroll down to "OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument) TC" And there's a nice link for the monthly archives: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/<br/><br/>Well, that was easy. I can see a number proposals and submissions for corrections. And if I want to participate on a call, here's an example of the announcement for a forthcoming call... http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/200803/msg00042.html<br/><br/>follows by the minutes for that meeting... http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/200803/msg00049.html<br/><br/>Further we can see some results from one of those meetings... http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/200803/msg00040.html<br/><br/>Along with a reply from a Chinese developer about the use of imperial units... http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/200803/msg00064.html<br/><br/>Where the hell can I get that kind of transparency for JTC1? Have there EVER been minutes published from, say, the OOXML BRM? If memory serves, the public was SPECIFICALLY BARRED from attending that discussion, and participants were prohibited from making public statements about the contents.<br/><br/>Whatever drugs Rick is on, he needs to talk to his dealer. His supply is clearly tainted. I’m not sure Rick is smoking something so much as shooting it up. A casual perusal of http://www.oasis-open.org reveals a link on the right for “mailing list directory” which goes to http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/

So I can scroll down to “OASIS Open Document Format for Office Applications (OpenDocument) TC” And there’s a nice link for the monthly archives: http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/

Well, that was easy. I can see a number proposals and submissions for corrections. And if I want to participate on a call, here’s an example of the announcement for a forthcoming call… http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/200803/msg00042.html

follows by the minutes for that meeting… http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/200803/msg00049.html

Further we can see some results from one of those meetings… http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/200803/msg00040.html

Along with a reply from a Chinese developer about the use of imperial units… http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/office/200803/msg00064.html

Where the hell can I get that kind of transparency for JTC1? Have there EVER been minutes published from, say, the OOXML BRM? If memory serves, the public was SPECIFICALLY BARRED from attending that discussion, and participants were prohibited from making public statements about the contents.

Whatever drugs Rick is on, he needs to talk to his dealer. His supply is clearly tainted.

]]> By: zoobab http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2007 zoobab Fri, 18 Jul 2008 13:50:00 +0000 http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/07/what-is-rick-smoking.html#comment-2007 Here is the list of participants to the London meeting:<br/><br/>==================================<br/>Adam Farquhar (Ecma)<br/>Alex Brown (UK)<br/>Benjamin Henrion (BE)<br/>Brett Roberts (NZ)<br/>Dave Welsh (US)<br/>Doug Mahugh (Ecma)<br/>Francis Cave (GB)<br/>Isabelle Valet-Harper (Ecma)<br/>Istvan Sebestyen (Ecma)<br/>Jasper Hedegaard Bojsen (DK)<br/>Jean Paoli (Ecma)<br/>Jean Stride (GB)<br/>Jesper Lund Stocholm (DK)<br/>Jirka Kosek (CZ)<br/>Keld Simonsen (NO)<br/>Ken Holman (CA)<br/>Kimmo Bergius (FI)<br/>Manu Setälä (FI)<br/>Michiel Leenaars (NL)<br/>Murata Makoto (JP)<br/>Patrick Durusau (US)<br/>Pia Elleby Lange (DK)<br/>Rex Jaeschke (Ecma)<br/>Shahzad Rana (NO)<br/>Wemba Opota (CI)<br/>==================================<br/><br/>There seems to be an abnormal concentration of Microsofties in there. Yet another sign of vendor capture? Here is the list of participants to the London meeting:

==================================
Adam Farquhar (Ecma)
Alex Brown (UK)
Benjamin Henrion (BE)
Brett Roberts (NZ)
Dave Welsh (US)
Doug Mahugh (Ecma)
Francis Cave (GB)
Isabelle Valet-Harper (Ecma)
Istvan Sebestyen (Ecma)
Jasper Hedegaard Bojsen (DK)
Jean Paoli (Ecma)
Jean Stride (GB)
Jesper Lund Stocholm (DK)
Jirka Kosek (CZ)
Keld Simonsen (NO)
Ken Holman (CA)
Kimmo Bergius (FI)
Manu Setälä (FI)
Michiel Leenaars (NL)
Murata Makoto (JP)
Patrick Durusau (US)
Pia Elleby Lange (DK)
Rex Jaeschke (Ecma)
Shahzad Rana (NO)
Wemba Opota (CI)
==================================

There seems to be an abnormal concentration of Microsofties in there. Yet another sign of vendor capture?

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