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	<title>Comments on: The Piemen of Erie</title>
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	<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/piemen-of-erie.html</link>
	<description>Thinking the unthinkable, pondering the imponderable, effing the ineffable and scruting the inscrutable</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1400</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2008 07:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/the-piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1400</guid>
		<description>This story reminds me of the EU attempt to standardize power plugs. Over time, every country tried to protect their electical appliance industry by inventing a special, incompatible power plug. Inconvenient and expensive.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;By the time the EU tried to harmonize the plugs, the Germans dominated the continental economy and most continental countries could accomodate the German type plugs (Schuko). Obviously, the intended standard (IEC 60906-1) could be used with the continental sockets and plugs with little fuss. But NOT with the rather bulky UK BS 1363 plugs.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Predictably, the BS1363 countries were extremely unhappy. So the UK refused to accept the IEC 60906-1 standard. They would only go for a completely NEW standard that would be equally inconvenient to all countries. Of course, nothing really happened in the end.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;One problem that cannot be handled by the plug standard is the difference in wiring. UK homes mainly seem to have ring wires with high current 32 A fuses. Continental homes generally have star wiring with (10?) 16 A fuses. As a result, each BS1363 plug needs a seperate fuse for safety. This is not necessary in continental plugs.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Winter</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This story reminds me of the EU attempt to standardize power plugs. Over time, every country tried to protect their electical appliance industry by inventing a special, incompatible power plug. Inconvenient and expensive.</p>
<p>By the time the EU tried to harmonize the plugs, the Germans dominated the continental economy and most continental countries could accomodate the German type plugs (Schuko). Obviously, the intended standard (IEC 60906-1) could be used with the continental sockets and plugs with little fuss. But NOT with the rather bulky UK BS 1363 plugs.</p>
<p>Predictably, the BS1363 countries were extremely unhappy. So the UK refused to accept the IEC 60906-1 standard. They would only go for a completely NEW standard that would be equally inconvenient to all countries. Of course, nothing really happened in the end.</p>
<p>One problem that cannot be handled by the plug standard is the difference in wiring. UK homes mainly seem to have ring wires with high current 32 A fuses. Continental homes generally have star wiring with (10?) 16 A fuses. As a result, each BS1363 plug needs a seperate fuse for safety. This is not necessary in continental plugs.</p>
<p>Winter</p>
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		<title>By: Luc Bollen</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1398</link>
		<dc:creator>Luc Bollen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2008 02:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/the-piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1398</guid>
		<description>@nksingh: &quot;Many of the smaller gossamer players already have trains running on the defacto standard lines.&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Speaking about office documents, everybody is abandoning the existing _defacto standard formats_ (the binary ones)!  Microsoft pushes to replace them by OOXML, while most other vendors push to replace them by ODF.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;But in any case, everybody agrees that the existing defacto formats have to be changed...&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The cost of changing the &quot;existing lines&quot; will have to be paid.  But you have the choice between a looking-forward approach or a looking-backward approach.  And in the long run the backward approach (OOXML) will be more costly for everybody, but more profitable for Microsoft...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@nksingh: &#8220;Many of the smaller gossamer players already have trains running on the defacto standard lines.&#8221;</p>
<p>Speaking about office documents, everybody is abandoning the existing _defacto standard formats_ (the binary ones)!  Microsoft pushes to replace them by OOXML, while most other vendors push to replace them by ODF.</p>
<p>But in any case, everybody agrees that the existing defacto formats have to be changed&#8230;</p>
<p>The cost of changing the &#8220;existing lines&#8221; will have to be paid.  But you have the choice between a looking-forward approach or a looking-backward approach.  And in the long run the backward approach (OOXML) will be more costly for everybody, but more profitable for Microsoft&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1397</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2008 18:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/the-piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1397</guid>
		<description>@nksingh,&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Historically they did in fact change thousands of miles of train tracks, especially to integrate the South.  On May 31st, 1886 thousands of workers in the South adjusted their tracks by 3″ lining up with the Northern gauge. Eleven-thousand miles of tracks were converted in just thirty-six hours.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;As for choosing a document format, I&#039;d take the long term view of it.  The future is a lot bigger than the past.  Sure we have a lot of old documents, but we&#039;ll have even more documents created in the next 10 years than we have accumulated in all of our digital past.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;If track gauges different only in measurement, then of course you would go with the predominant one, all else being equal.  But what if one gauge offered greater choice of vendors, including vendors who offered products and services at a lower price, and their gauge was more efficient, required less fuel, and that products that worked with that gauge used off-the-shelf parts and used technologies that were more familiar to the engineers coming out of school?  Then you might make a different choice.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It is bad business and bad economics to let sunk costs rule decision making.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@nksingh,</p>
<p>Historically they did in fact change thousands of miles of train tracks, especially to integrate the South.  On May 31st, 1886 thousands of workers in the South adjusted their tracks by 3″ lining up with the Northern gauge. Eleven-thousand miles of tracks were converted in just thirty-six hours.</p>
<p>As for choosing a document format, I&#8217;d take the long term view of it.  The future is a lot bigger than the past.  Sure we have a lot of old documents, but we&#8217;ll have even more documents created in the next 10 years than we have accumulated in all of our digital past.  </p>
<p>If track gauges different only in measurement, then of course you would go with the predominant one, all else being equal.  But what if one gauge offered greater choice of vendors, including vendors who offered products and services at a lower price, and their gauge was more efficient, required less fuel, and that products that worked with that gauge used off-the-shelf parts and used technologies that were more familiar to the engineers coming out of school?  Then you might make a different choice.</p>
<p>It is bad business and bad economics to let sunk costs rule decision making.</p>
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		<title>By: Victor</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1395</link>
		<dc:creator>Victor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 23:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/the-piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1395</guid>
		<description>Convertors. Ah, the omnipotent converters.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Actually it&#039;s irrelevant if they work perfectly or not. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;How come ? &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It&#039;s easy: either &quot;it is trivial to run data from one file format to another&quot; or it&#039;s &quot;not trivial to do&quot;. In the first case the easy solution is to keep all public documents in one format (ODF since it&#039;s already standardized) and convert to OOXML on as-needed basis. In the last case problems are quite real, conversion tax is real and two standards will incur &quot;conversion tax&quot; - forever. Thus OOXML is unneeded too.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The real solution is to produce some mix of ODF and OOXML (if it&#039;s needed), but to have two competing standards in counterintuitive and stupid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Convertors. Ah, the omnipotent converters.</p>
<p>Actually it&#8217;s irrelevant if they work perfectly or not. </p>
<p>How come ? </p>
<p>It&#8217;s easy: either &#8220;it is trivial to run data from one file format to another&#8221; or it&#8217;s &#8220;not trivial to do&#8221;. In the first case the easy solution is to keep all public documents in one format (ODF since it&#8217;s already standardized) and convert to OOXML on as-needed basis. In the last case problems are quite real, conversion tax is real and two standards will incur &#8220;conversion tax&#8221; &#8211; forever. Thus OOXML is unneeded too.</p>
<p>The real solution is to produce some mix of ODF and OOXML (if it&#8217;s needed), but to have two competing standards in counterintuitive and stupid.</p>
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		<title>By: nksingh</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1394</link>
		<dc:creator>nksingh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2008 21:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/the-piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1394</guid>
		<description>Okay... we should have only one gauge for the trains, right?  So which one would you pick, the gauge used by the gossamer network of short rail lines that together don&#039;t add up to even 10% of the extant rail network, or the gauge used by the Union Pacific, which by itself has at least 70% of the rail lines out there.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Both of them are more or less easy to produce.  Many of the smaller gossamer players already have trains running on the defacto standard lines.  There might need to be some upgrades and changes to the wheels of third-party locomotives to put up with new standards imposed by the government (ISO) and Union Pacific, but that is far less costly to the whole world than ripping up and replacing all those extant rail lines.  Are the Erie Piemakers of the ODF movement that sure of their own interests that they would be willing to impose huge transition costs on the whole world just to spite the Union Pacific?  Is it worth rebuilding all those locomotives and freight cars rather than just changing a few wheels and extending what we&#039;ve got, even though it was originally produced at Union Pacific?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay&#8230; we should have only one gauge for the trains, right?  So which one would you pick, the gauge used by the gossamer network of short rail lines that together don&#8217;t add up to even 10% of the extant rail network, or the gauge used by the Union Pacific, which by itself has at least 70% of the rail lines out there.  </p>
<p>Both of them are more or less easy to produce.  Many of the smaller gossamer players already have trains running on the defacto standard lines.  There might need to be some upgrades and changes to the wheels of third-party locomotives to put up with new standards imposed by the government (ISO) and Union Pacific, but that is far less costly to the whole world than ripping up and replacing all those extant rail lines.  Are the Erie Piemakers of the ODF movement that sure of their own interests that they would be willing to impose huge transition costs on the whole world just to spite the Union Pacific?  Is it worth rebuilding all those locomotives and freight cars rather than just changing a few wheels and extending what we&#8217;ve got, even though it was originally produced at Union Pacific?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Ward</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1391</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Ward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 22:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/the-piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1391</guid>
		<description>In the UK, we&#039;re all one gauge (now ... two gauges lasted until 1870 or so) so there are no Piemen.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;However, the &#039;value&#039; has moved along the value chain. It&#039;s sitting with those who devise the pricing structure for rail fares. If you can book your rail travel 12 weeks in advance, and travel after 10.30, then you can usually get an 80% discount.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The complexity of the ticket prices is such that nobody understands it. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Here&#039;s the latest twist &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7167367.stm&quot; REL=&quot;nofollow&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;BBC on train fares&lt;/a&gt; . We have &#039;regulated&#039; fares, and &#039;unregulated&#039; fares.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;These fare spikes are bad for people and bad for the environment.&quot; -- well, maybe. Or maybe just a different kind of pieman ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the UK, we&#8217;re all one gauge (now &#8230; two gauges lasted until 1870 or so) so there are no Piemen.</p>
<p>However, the &#8216;value&#8217; has moved along the value chain. It&#8217;s sitting with those who devise the pricing structure for rail fares. If you can book your rail travel 12 weeks in advance, and travel after 10.30, then you can usually get an 80% discount.</p>
<p>The complexity of the ticket prices is such that nobody understands it. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the latest twist <a HREF="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7167367.stm" REL="nofollow" rel="nofollow">BBC on train fares</a> . We have &#8216;regulated&#8217; fares, and &#8216;unregulated&#8217; fares.</p>
<p>&#8220;These fare spikes are bad for people and bad for the environment.&#8221; &#8212; well, maybe. Or maybe just a different kind of pieman ?</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Langhinrichs</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1382</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Langhinrichs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 14:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/the-piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1382</guid>
		<description>I like the idea that &quot;it is trivial to run data from one file format to another&quot;.  It may be trivial to describe it, but it is certainly non-trivial to accomplish it.  Translation between different formats is somewhat like translation between different languages.  It may be easier to go from Italian to Spanish than from Chinese to French, but there is always data loss, which is why so many developers in so many countries request that documentation be produced in the original language rather than be translated and lose meaning.  Even &quot;good&quot; translation between file formats tends to lead to loss of fidelity, nuance or context, and sometimes all three.  If you don&#039;t believe Rob about this, go look at the records of the people writing to ODF/OOXML translator that Microsoft likes to talk about all the time.  They have run into a number of features that they can&#039;t figure out how to translate.  It doesn&#039;t even matter whether you blame ODF or OOXML for the differences, they are differences all the same, which is Rob&#039;s point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea that &#8220;it is trivial to run data from one file format to another&#8221;.  It may be trivial to describe it, but it is certainly non-trivial to accomplish it.  Translation between different formats is somewhat like translation between different languages.  It may be easier to go from Italian to Spanish than from Chinese to French, but there is always data loss, which is why so many developers in so many countries request that documentation be produced in the original language rather than be translated and lose meaning.  Even &#8220;good&#8221; translation between file formats tends to lead to loss of fidelity, nuance or context, and sometimes all three.  If you don&#8217;t believe Rob about this, go look at the records of the people writing to ODF/OOXML translator that Microsoft likes to talk about all the time.  They have run into a number of features that they can&#8217;t figure out how to translate.  It doesn&#8217;t even matter whether you blame ODF or OOXML for the differences, they are differences all the same, which is Rob&#8217;s point.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1381</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 13:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/the-piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1381</guid>
		<description>Not exactly a commercial only problem.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Here in &quot;academia&quot; we face the same problem. We are doing Brain Imaging with MR. We are slightly more advanced in the sense that we have a &quot;container file format&quot; that can be adapted to contain anything we need for our analysis. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Unfortunately, squabbling among different research groups means rather than simplify things, it is a container for all things. A lot of group specific stuff went in, for example, two different ways of specifying rigid-body transformation matrix. Sounds familiar? Yes, it is like those &quot;deprecated&quot; features in OOXML, only different is it is not deprecated but part of the standard. Important things, such as timing and slice acquisition orders are optional, and we STILL have the problem figuring out which is the left side.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Why these problems? As you said &quot;some will benefit from others misfortune&quot; and nobody wants to be the misfortune one. Nobody wants to modify their existing software to the other &quot;transformation parameter&quot;. Nobody wants to be the one who have to flip their images to fit the convention. Hence, the compromise is that you can do everything you want in the file format.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;In the end, we have insufficient progress to achieve the ultimate goal of able shift data from one application to another. Why? like OOXML, the data is ill-defined.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not exactly a commercial only problem.</p>
<p>Here in &#8220;academia&#8221; we face the same problem. We are doing Brain Imaging with MR. We are slightly more advanced in the sense that we have a &#8220;container file format&#8221; that can be adapted to contain anything we need for our analysis. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, squabbling among different research groups means rather than simplify things, it is a container for all things. A lot of group specific stuff went in, for example, two different ways of specifying rigid-body transformation matrix. Sounds familiar? Yes, it is like those &#8220;deprecated&#8221; features in OOXML, only different is it is not deprecated but part of the standard. Important things, such as timing and slice acquisition orders are optional, and we STILL have the problem figuring out which is the left side.</p>
<p>Why these problems? As you said &#8220;some will benefit from others misfortune&#8221; and nobody wants to be the misfortune one. Nobody wants to modify their existing software to the other &#8220;transformation parameter&#8221;. Nobody wants to be the one who have to flip their images to fit the convention. Hence, the compromise is that you can do everything you want in the file format.</p>
<p>In the end, we have insufficient progress to achieve the ultimate goal of able shift data from one application to another. Why? like OOXML, the data is ill-defined.</p>
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		<title>By: Nate</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1380</link>
		<dc:creator>Nate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 12:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/the-piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1380</guid>
		<description>No one cares about moving the TRAIN from gauge to gauge.  They care about moving the CARGO.  And that&#039;s why the piemen of Erie were commercially interested in the maintenance of two rail standards.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&quot;it is trivial to run data from one file format to another&quot;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;No it isn&#039;t.  Look at Microsoft&#039;s own decision to drop file formats with Office 2003 SP3 for boneheaded obvious evidence that running data from one file format to another actually has a cost -- one that MS has decided is too great to carry.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I wonder if this anonymous person is the same one who believes that editing the registry is also a trivial matter for end-users?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No one cares about moving the TRAIN from gauge to gauge.  They care about moving the CARGO.  And that&#8217;s why the piemen of Erie were commercially interested in the maintenance of two rail standards.</p>
<p>&#8220;it is trivial to run data from one file format to another&#8221;</p>
<p>No it isn&#8217;t.  Look at Microsoft&#8217;s own decision to drop file formats with Office 2003 SP3 for boneheaded obvious evidence that running data from one file format to another actually has a cost &#8212; one that MS has decided is too great to carry.</p>
<p>I wonder if this anonymous person is the same one who believes that editing the registry is also a trivial matter for end-users?</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1378</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 04:51:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/the-piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1378</guid>
		<description>@anonymous, &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It is not impossible to run a train from one gauge to another.  It has been done before, with specially designed trains, in particular by the Germans when preparing to invade Russia.  But it is not as cost-effective as having a single gauge. &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Ditto for file formats.  You could convert if needed, but it will never be as efficient in terms of fidelity or runtime resources, as having a single common file format.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I&#039;ve been meaning to do a blog post to address that topic, since there are some common misconceptions.  So thanks for the reminder that there is still a need for elucidation on that topic.  &lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Maybe I can get 8 more seconds of your brain on that post as well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@anonymous, </p>
<p>It is not impossible to run a train from one gauge to another.  It has been done before, with specially designed trains, in particular by the Germans when preparing to invade Russia.  But it is not as cost-effective as having a single gauge. </p>
<p>Ditto for file formats.  You could convert if needed, but it will never be as efficient in terms of fidelity or runtime resources, as having a single common file format.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been meaning to do a blog post to address that topic, since there are some common misconceptions.  So thanks for the reminder that there is still a need for elucidation on that topic.  </p>
<p>Maybe I can get 8 more seconds of your brain on that post as well?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1374</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 03:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/the-piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1374</guid>
		<description>I love this analogy, it seems to make so much sense unless you stop and think about it for about 8 seconds.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;While it is impossible to run a train from gauge it gauge it is trivial to run data from one file format to another and we have been doing just that for as long as we have been practicing computer science.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The general theme of anybody bringing this analogy up in public generally runs to a next step of waving an international electrical plug converter in the air talking about the lunacy of different countries socket and electrical standards, stating that it makes it almost impossible to travel with a laptop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love this analogy, it seems to make so much sense unless you stop and think about it for about 8 seconds.</p>
<p>While it is impossible to run a train from gauge it gauge it is trivial to run data from one file format to another and we have been doing just that for as long as we have been practicing computer science.</p>
<p>The general theme of anybody bringing this analogy up in public generally runs to a next step of waving an international electrical plug converter in the air talking about the lunacy of different countries socket and electrical standards, stating that it makes it almost impossible to travel with a laptop.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1370</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 01:44:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2008/01/the-piemen-of-erie.html#comment-1370</guid>
		<description>&gt; Piemen of the word, unite !&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;Dyslexics of the world, untie!  :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>> Piemen of the word, unite !</p>
<p>Dyslexics of the world, untie!  :-)</p>
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