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	<title>Comments on: Broken Windows and the Ghost of Keynes</title>
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	<description>Thinking the unthinkable, pondering the imponderable, effing the ineffable and scruting the inscrutable</description>
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		<title>By: arquitectos en cordoba</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-3535</link>
		<dc:creator>arquitectos en cordoba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:11:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-the-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-3535</guid>
		<description>hal, part of that extra revenue that they are talking about is the support costs for retraining users to understand the new interface.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hal, part of that extra revenue that they are talking about is the support costs for retraining users to understand the new interface.</p>
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		<title>By: Embrace the Reality and Logic of Choice</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-2643</link>
		<dc:creator>Embrace the Reality and Logic of Choice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 02:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-the-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-2643</guid>
		<description>[...] this choice. Of course, this is just a rehash of an old logical fallacy, related to the old &#8220;Broken Windows&#8221; fallacy. It is like saying heart disease is a good thing because you have such a wide choice [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] this choice. Of course, this is just a rehash of an old logical fallacy, related to the old &#8220;Broken Windows&#8221; fallacy. It is like saying heart disease is a good thing because you have such a wide choice [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-997</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2007 09:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-the-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-997</guid>
		<description>The IDC report doesn&#039;t deal with the job creation that might be engendered if if every $1 spent on a Vista licence was instead freed up to be invested or spent in higher job creation alternatives, such a leisure, internet, education etc, or simply saved for future spending by by using Linux/Open Office.  These give much higher returns and employment for millions, not 159,000, returning perhaps $50 or more in newer wealths for every $1 spent.  Where a licence is forced upon us where better of cheaper alternatives exist, it takes away choice.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;The point about the baker&#039;s broken window is the baker might simply have been able to claim on the insurance.&lt;br/&gt;&lt;br/&gt;It&#039;s a little harder to claim if instead of being broken by the errant baseball, the window was broken by a brick with a licence attached, and it was known in advance this was going to happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The IDC report doesn&#8217;t deal with the job creation that might be engendered if if every $1 spent on a Vista licence was instead freed up to be invested or spent in higher job creation alternatives, such a leisure, internet, education etc, or simply saved for future spending by by using Linux/Open Office.  These give much higher returns and employment for millions, not 159,000, returning perhaps $50 or more in newer wealths for every $1 spent.  Where a licence is forced upon us where better of cheaper alternatives exist, it takes away choice.</p>
<p>The point about the baker&#8217;s broken window is the baker might simply have been able to claim on the insurance.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a little harder to claim if instead of being broken by the errant baseball, the window was broken by a brick with a licence attached, and it was known in advance this was going to happen.</p>
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		<title>By: hAl</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-284</link>
		<dc:creator>hAl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jan 2007 12:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-the-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-284</guid>
		<description>@anonymous&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The spending on the usertraining that you use as an example is also likely to make your users more efficient as they can use a newer and better product. &lt;br /&gt;So the training combined with the newer software can create higher productivity for your organisation. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In economical terms it is an investment in your workforce that can create revenue by lowering the long term office costs.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;One of the problems for a relative newcomer like OpenOffice is that organisations do not have the feeling that it will create a more efficient office environment so even the lower cost for licenses is not enough incentive for most organisations at the moment.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;I have personally not found any independant studies into software efficiency and productivity for integrated office environments. In fact it is hard to find any [b]independant[/b] studies on any subject nowadays :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@anonymous</p>
<p>The spending on the usertraining that you use as an example is also likely to make your users more efficient as they can use a newer and better product. <br />So the training combined with the newer software can create higher productivity for your organisation. </p>
<p>In economical terms it is an investment in your workforce that can create revenue by lowering the long term office costs.</p>
<p>One of the problems for a relative newcomer like OpenOffice is that organisations do not have the feeling that it will create a more efficient office environment so even the lower cost for licenses is not enough incentive for most organisations at the moment.</p>
<p>I have personally not found any independant studies into software efficiency and productivity for integrated office environments. In fact it is hard to find any [b]independant[/b] studies on any subject nowadays :(</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-277</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2007 00:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-the-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-277</guid>
		<description>hal, part of that extra revenue that they are talking about is the support costs for retraining users to understand the new interface.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;When you support users for a living, you do not like change for change&#039;s sake--it scares the users and makes things harder for you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hal, part of that extra revenue that they are talking about is the support costs for retraining users to understand the new interface.</p>
<p>When you support users for a living, you do not like change for change&#8217;s sake&#8211;it scares the users and makes things harder for you.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-275</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2007 20:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-the-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-275</guid>
		<description>I think the real problem with how the  IDC has described the Vista (economic) phenomenon relates to the words &quot;pronounced positive&quot;, as in ...&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&quot;Rapid and widespread adoption of Windows Vista means that its launch will not only affect Microsoft but will also have a pronounced positive impact on local economies throughout the world.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Anonymous said, &quot;I see nothing fallacious in the parts quoted.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The problem is that &quot;pronounced&quot; and &quot;positive&quot; have a normative aspect to them, which is debatable.  Even the $70 billion figure says little, as Rob highlighted, because it&#039;s $70b compared to what?  $70b might be a shamefully low amount of economic value compared to alternatives.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&#039;s like standing in an isolation chamber and saying, &quot;This bottle of milk costs $5.  Is that expensive or cheap?&quot;  Impossible to answer in the abstract.  The price/value has no meaning without looking at alternative products and vendors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the real problem with how the  IDC has described the Vista (economic) phenomenon relates to the words &#8220;pronounced positive&#8221;, as in &#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;Rapid and widespread adoption of Windows Vista means that its launch will not only affect Microsoft but will also have a pronounced positive impact on local economies throughout the world.&#8221;</p>
<p>Anonymous said, &#8220;I see nothing fallacious in the parts quoted.&#8221;</p>
<p>The problem is that &#8220;pronounced&#8221; and &#8220;positive&#8221; have a normative aspect to them, which is debatable.  Even the $70 billion figure says little, as Rob highlighted, because it&#8217;s $70b compared to what?  $70b might be a shamefully low amount of economic value compared to alternatives.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s like standing in an isolation chamber and saying, &#8220;This bottle of milk costs $5.  Is that expensive or cheap?&#8221;  Impossible to answer in the abstract.  The price/value has no meaning without looking at alternative products and vendors.</p>
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		<title>By: hAl</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-226</link>
		<dc:creator>hAl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jan 2007 11:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-the-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-226</guid>
		<description>You do not account for any benificial effect of technology upgrading. &lt;br /&gt;If there were no benifit to upgrading technology then why would people be buying it ? &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;People buy newer telephones because they provide new and better features. People buy newer cars because they are safer of more confortable or more fuel efficient. These spending also have extra spending effects that ripplie trough the economy. &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Another point to make is that you use only one economic spending effect. The respending of the income. That only really relates to employees and dividend recipients of Microsoft spending the income further.&lt;br /&gt;However most of the economic effects of the Vista or MS Office upgrades are provided by combined spending where the investment in a new MS Office leads to extra related spending in hardware and services.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You do not account for any benificial effect of technology upgrading. <br />If there were no benifit to upgrading technology then why would people be buying it ? </p>
<p>People buy newer telephones because they provide new and better features. People buy newer cars because they are safer of more confortable or more fuel efficient. These spending also have extra spending effects that ripplie trough the economy. </p>
<p>Another point to make is that you use only one economic spending effect. The respending of the income. That only really relates to employees and dividend recipients of Microsoft spending the income further.<br />However most of the economic effects of the Vista or MS Office upgrades are provided by combined spending where the investment in a new MS Office leads to extra related spending in hardware and services.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-224</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jan 2007 03:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-the-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-224</guid>
		<description>Sorry, more accurately: I see nothing fallacious in the parts quoted.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;i&gt;&quot;Rapid and widespread adoption of Windows Vista means that its launch will not only affect Microsoft but will also have a pronounced positive impact on local economies throughout the world.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Yes, I agree that&#039;s a more dubious claim.  It would have to be justified in terms of the expected productivity gains and measured against the costs -- not by tracing the exchange of currency through the economy and neglecting, as you say, that the money would otherwise be spent elsewhere.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;i&gt;In any case the fallacy is really about focusing entirely on the person fixing the broken window and the benefits that they receive without looking at who the losers are.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;It&#039;s also about the broken window -- the Keynesian idea of stimulating the economy and somehow creating wealth by first destroying it.  Hazlitt is not discussing private, free-market, non-criminal activity.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Hazlitt&#039;s book is more generally about the common economic mistake of focusing on what is proximate, localized, and easily perceived -- whether good or bad -- while neglecting the effects that are more diffused harder to see.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;The entire history of the computer industry has consisted of cycles of hardware and software upgrades (and at frequencies much higher than Vista&#039;s five-year interval).  If you&#039;re pointing at the discarded hardware and software and suggesting that these cycles on net destroy wealth, then that would be, I think, an example of the broader fallacy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, more accurately: I see nothing fallacious in the parts quoted.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;Rapid and widespread adoption of Windows Vista means that its launch will not only affect Microsoft but will also have a pronounced positive impact on local economies throughout the world.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Yes, I agree that&#8217;s a more dubious claim.  It would have to be justified in terms of the expected productivity gains and measured against the costs &#8212; not by tracing the exchange of currency through the economy and neglecting, as you say, that the money would otherwise be spent elsewhere.</p>
<p><i>In any case the fallacy is really about focusing entirely on the person fixing the broken window and the benefits that they receive without looking at who the losers are.</i></p>
<p>It&#8217;s also about the broken window &#8212; the Keynesian idea of stimulating the economy and somehow creating wealth by first destroying it.  Hazlitt is not discussing private, free-market, non-criminal activity.</p>
<p>Hazlitt&#8217;s book is more generally about the common economic mistake of focusing on what is proximate, localized, and easily perceived &#8212; whether good or bad &#8212; while neglecting the effects that are more diffused harder to see.</p>
<p>The entire history of the computer industry has consisted of cycles of hardware and software upgrades (and at frequencies much higher than Vista&#8217;s five-year interval).  If you&#8217;re pointing at the discarded hardware and software and suggesting that these cycles on net destroy wealth, then that would be, I think, an example of the broader fallacy.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-222</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jan 2007 01:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-the-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-222</guid>
		<description>If you read the report in detail, you&#039;ll see their claims go beyond your more modest retelling.  For example, &quot;Rapid and widespread adoption of Windows Vista means that its launch will not only affect Microsoft but will also have a pronounced positive impact on local economies throughout the world.&quot; &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;That to me sounds like a much bolder claim.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;In any case the fallacy is really about focusing entirely on the person fixing the broken window and the benefits that they receive without looking at who the losers are.  &lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If a high altitude atomic burst had generated an EMP that wiped out $70 billion in hardware, we would consider this an enormous calamity and a blow to the economy.  But Vista doing the same thing is a cause for celebration?   You would think that the environmental damage alone of all that needlessly obsoleted and discarded hardware would give us pause.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you read the report in detail, you&#8217;ll see their claims go beyond your more modest retelling.  For example, &#8220;Rapid and widespread adoption of Windows Vista means that its launch will not only affect Microsoft but will also have a pronounced positive impact on local economies throughout the world.&#8221; </p>
<p>That to me sounds like a much bolder claim.</p>
<p>In any case the fallacy is really about focusing entirely on the person fixing the broken window and the benefits that they receive without looking at who the losers are.  </p>
<p>If a high altitude atomic burst had generated an EMP that wiped out $70 billion in hardware, we would consider this an enormous calamity and a blow to the economy.  But Vista doing the same thing is a cause for celebration?   You would think that the environmental damage alone of all that needlessly obsoleted and discarded hardware would give us pause.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-220</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jan 2007 01:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/broken-windows-and-the-ghost-of-keynes.html#comment-220</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see anything fallacious in the IDC report.  It&#039;s a report on the (projected) localized effects within the U.S. IT industry, not the net effects to the entire economy.  The report doesn&#039;t claim that the $70b represents new wealth, only that it&#039;s revenue for the local &quot;ecosystem&quot;.  I think the job creation figures are intended to be understood in the same context.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;If this were a report on Vista&#039;s &lt;b&gt;net&lt;/b&gt; economic effects then I think we could call this an example of the broken window fallacy.&lt;br /&gt;&lt;br /&gt;Or, more in line with Hazlitt&#039;s intentions, suppose this were a report advocating that the government spend $X billion for some project and that these will be the benefits.  &lt;b&gt;Now&lt;/b&gt; you&#039;re talking broken window fallacy!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see anything fallacious in the IDC report.  It&#8217;s a report on the (projected) localized effects within the U.S. IT industry, not the net effects to the entire economy.  The report doesn&#8217;t claim that the $70b represents new wealth, only that it&#8217;s revenue for the local &#8220;ecosystem&#8221;.  I think the job creation figures are intended to be understood in the same context.</p>
<p>If this were a report on Vista&#8217;s <b>net</b> economic effects then I think we could call this an example of the broken window fallacy.</p>
<p>Or, more in line with Hazlitt&#8217;s intentions, suppose this were a report advocating that the government spend $X billion for some project and that these will be the benefits.  <b>Now</b> you&#8217;re talking broken window fallacy!</p>
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